Local Streaming Channels

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Re: Local Streaming Channels

Postby herno74 » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:23 am

I still don't see how that destroys the advertising system. If it's "live", it's "live". Advertising dollars will still be paying for it whether it is "Over the Air" or "Over the Stream". I feel you are comparing apples to oranges here.
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Re: Local Streaming Channels

Postby mikebdoss » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:35 am

herno74 wrote:I still don't see how that destroys the advertising system. If it's "live", it's "live". Advertising dollars will still be paying for it whether it is "Over the Air" or "Over the Stream". I feel you are comparing apples to oranges here.


Doesn't really matter how you see it, or how you think we see it. That's how the networks see it.
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Re: Local Streaming Channels

Postby herno74 » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:57 am

Gotta love big corp!!
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Re: Local Streaming Channels

Postby TheEndless » Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:51 am

There are also significant additional infrastructure and bandwidth costs associated with streaming, on both the broadcaster's and the viewer's sides, that isn't covered by current advertising dollars.
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Re: Local Streaming Channels

Postby FX4 » Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:02 pm

herno74 wrote:Unfortunately, I can only get 2 or 3 HD channels through the "air". This is with a digital antenna I borrowed from my brother just to test and see what was available. Of course, I can go with Cable or Satellite, but I'm trying to completely avoid that.

I like what USTVNOW is doing. I have not tried SkitterTV. I really don't see why it would be so difficult to stream the locals, if they truly are free, then all a company would have to do (at least what I think) would be to verify your location and then allow you to sign up for just those channels you should be seeing for free.
Well what is the antenna model you borrowed and what is your zip code? In short order we can see what you can get. If you borrowed a set of rabbit ears that doesn't say much about what you can really get. Off air signals often require a little research and the right antenna for you location and situation.
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Re: Local Streaming Channels

Postby vnzjunk » Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:05 pm

re: Even if yo're local (which there's no true way to verify), they can't stream stuff to you.

MLB doesn't seem to have a problem locating the boxes so as to apply their broadcast blackout rules. I should think that whatever method they use along with ISP/IPaddress pinpointing would do the trick if this was the problem.


mikebdoss wrote:
herno74 wrote:Unfortunately, I can only get 2 or 3 HD channels through the "air". This is with a digital antenna I borrowed from my brother just to test and see what was available. Of course, I can go with Cable or Satellite, but I'm trying to completely avoid that.

I like what USTVNOW is doing. I have not tried SkitterTV. I really don't see why it would be so difficult to stream the locals, if they truly are free, then all a company would have to do (at least what I think) would be to verify your location and then allow you to sign up for just those channels you should be seeing for free.


USTVNow is absolutely rebroadcasting without permission, and tries to get around this by saying it's only available to users outside the US. This may be saving them from prosecution, but it doesn't make it legal.

The "problem" for local affiliates is that they don't have the internet rebroadcasting rights for the material they show. It's also probably against their agreements they have with their "parent" networks (for all but the shows they produce). Even if yo're local (which there's no true way to verify), they can't stream stuff to you.
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Re: Local Streaming Channels

Postby Gilgamesh » Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:06 pm

stratcat96 wrote:...
Local TV stations already will stream their news segments live sans commercials. Their own programming is the only thing "theirs" that they can do what they wish with


There is even some dispute about the local news and such being "owned" by the local station(s) as most use clips and segments that are network produced/provided.

I have a couple of acquaintances that are in different legal departments (One at a network and one at a local station affiliated with a different network) and they both have told me that there have been inquiries and memos to investigate about whether local content is legal to stream if it includes network content that is not licensed to stream.

One of them tried to explain exactly what might make it legal/illegal and her explanation rapidly became so complex and full of legalese that my eyes practically glazed over and rolled back in my head.

That explanation made me think of: (paraphrased) "Not even God can make any sense of the copyright laws of this country." by Mark Twain ( If I remember correctly)
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Re: Local Streaming Channels

Postby FX4 » Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:07 pm

vnzjunk wrote:re: Even if yo're local (which there's no true way to verify), they can't stream stuff to you.

MLB doesn't seem to have a problem locating the boxes so as to apply their broadcast blackout rules. I should think that whatever method they use along with ISP/IPaddress pinpointing would do the trick if this was the problem.


mikebdoss wrote:
herno74 wrote:Unfortunately, I can only get 2 or 3 HD channels through the "air". This is with a digital antenna I borrowed from my brother just to test and see what was available. Of course, I can go with Cable or Satellite, but I'm trying to completely avoid that.

I like what USTVNOW is doing. I have not tried SkitterTV. I really don't see why it would be so difficult to stream the locals, if they truly are free, then all a company would have to do (at least what I think) would be to verify your location and then allow you to sign up for just those channels you should be seeing for free.


USTVNow is absolutely rebroadcasting without permission, and tries to get around this by saying it's only available to users outside the US. This may be saving them from prosecution, but it doesn't make it legal.

The "problem" for local affiliates is that they don't have the internet rebroadcasting rights for the material they show. It's also probably against their agreements they have with their "parent" networks (for all but the shows they produce). Even if yo're local (which there's no true way to verify), they can't stream stuff to you.


Geo location via IP address.
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Re: Local Streaming Channels

Postby MazeWizzard » Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:20 pm

I agree with you (OP) philosophically, (paraphrased) "What's the diff if the transmission is via OTA or net? Transmission is transmission."

Well, as mentioned above, the difference is locality.

Now, the beauty of the internet is that it's largely location-indifferent (from a technical possibility standpoint... not necessarily a legal one). I also think that the current revenue models and legalities are woefully antiquated... and I'm certainly not an expert... but even I can see that much. The 1950's model of advertising is not too great for the 2010's. The networks know this. So do advertisers. So does Congress. So does the FCC and whomever else is involved.

What they don't know... is how to fix it IMO. Also, it serves to keep the "small fry" cut out of the market. I've been watching/looking at IPTV channels in general. A lot of them are gone. Many have "take downs" and even google searches blocked by DMCA... and I think that some of these may have tried to be "legitimate"... in other words, not (intentionally) pirated content. Some were advertised as "classic" TV shows.. ones assumed to be without copyright. Theoretically, they could have had an advertiser supported model. I don't know if they were taken down, (copyright trolls?) or couldn't sustain a revenue stream. But it looks like it's tough going. The experts here (I'm just an opinionated bloke) would know more. The Roku (and others) seem to have some of these advertiser supported types available. I'm betting the $$'s are "lite".

The "big guy" cable companies are looking at proprietary boxes for IPTV delivery. They know each box and it's location. They "own" the box.. you rent it from them. Basically switching cable->internet. Interactive TV and such is a possibility too. Some already use the scheme... UVerse maybe? Others? But that's the distributor locking in contest with a specific DTB.

I think that there's a lot of "future money" in this technology. Everyone is trying to be a player and "lock in" the subscriber/viewer. The more I look into it, the nastier it gets.

If "Home is where the heart is" then why can't we watch IPTV if we are traveling just as if we were local?

On the other hand, if "Home is where you hang your hat", it's (currently) totally based on where you are at the moment. And with the internet, IP-location-aware or not, it can be spoofed.

One thing you need to make this work... is campaign finance reform. The government isn't going to work for the people's rights over big business' rights, until the PAC money gets the heck out of congress. Until then, Congress will keep passing "perpetual copyright" laws, and protecting business over consumer rights IMO. They need to protect business rights too, but I think they need to pay attention to the consumer rights also.

You, as a resident of such-n-such-a-town, should be able to "dial in" to such-n-such-a-town's TV station and view it... no matter where you are, in town or not. YOU KNOW that the local advertising is local...but you're either in that location, or are traveling. Of course, a non-resident could view it too. Is it the "not from there" that's the problem? Is it because "Al's used car lot" wants and pays for viewers in a certain area.... in the "old" way of thinking (or is that "pricing').

But maybe, Al could get a smattering of word-of-mouth business by just having it opened up. How much of the internet is geo-locked? You can find web pages for "Al's used car lot" with a google search...no matter where you are. You may never go there. Then again, you may.

Yet with networks and advertising, it bass-ackwards. TV is based on a geo-locked model from the start. The internet is geo-unloced (mostly) from the start. Few people are thinking "outside the box". Most big ISPs seem to be insisting on a (geo-locked) box. External pressure, or internal desire?

The cable/network companies know this. That's one reason they want geo-locked boxes. They can offer services in the traditional model. I don't think they want to be 100% internet providers... and I don't know what it would cost if they were (since some internet costs may be offset by cable TV revenue or some such).

Even when pirating isn't an issue, locality still seems to be. There are a few Roku channels that are free and advertising supported. I hope that model continues to improve and succeed. I watch some shows on IPTV that are not OTA type shows (Tekzilla, for example). I'd like to continue to do so.

Lot's of big players in this. Networks (internet infrastructure), Networks (media), content producers, advertisers, copyright holders, patent holders (codecs!), courts, congress, and lastly.... you. I can't figure it out. I'm not surprised, since I'm not an "Industry Insider". However, my options are limited to say the least...both from a potential "channel creator" perspective and as a consumer.

Sorry for rambling. I hope I didn't hijack your post too much. I don't think we'll see a "proper" solution to IPTV for "local" channels... one that is location neutral... for quite a long while.

Please excuse the ramblings from a non-expert in these matters. Most of this is just guess work, so feel free to correct. I just don't see the light at the end of this twisted tunnel.
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Re: Local Streaming Channels

Postby onevoisses » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:55 am

One of the Key issues here IMHO,is "retransmission",if you read most of the copyrights agreements(I do it when I am bored),it states that, you cannot retransmit without the consent of the rights owner.most stations even has a station jingle which tells you that.
Easily,not because you have a radio,you could just attached a transmitter to and start broadcasting.
I do not even think most lawyer understand the whole stupidity of these copyrights madness and therefore they will tell you stay far from it,if you love yourself.

I donot think (again IMHO) if you do it for yourself in your own private home you would see anyone coming to kick your door off.(By the way anyone know if they still need warrants to kick your door in?)

Here is an antenna which works like a charm for me it cost less than 6 dollars to build.and you get Mad channels,I current get 25 and more OAT and with my roku,I do not need cable/satelite

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Re: Local Streaming Channels

Postby MazeWizzard » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:28 am

Another thought. Without localization, how do you deal with "USA only" or International treaties and agreements?

Some countries outlaw tobacco advertising on TV and others allow it, but outlaw pharmaceutical ads. Even the USA has restrictions for pharma ads. How does one target a global audience? Should they? What about movies? (I know, I know, they pirate the heck out of them anyway, but that's not an excuse). If it's a 1st run USA movie, how do you regulate it?

So maybe your box should be "geo-locked" to a zip code or some such. But you take it with you when travel, allowing you to view advertising and content from anywhere AS IF YOU WERE at such-n-such a place. Maybe it's a dongle that allows this with a universal standard.

OTOH any such hardware solution opens up a black market for selling "locality codes/hardware". And software-only solutions get cracked.

The cable providers authorize a given box at a given area. You probably can't travel with it, but it's reasonably localized. Bet there's cracks for that too (illegal).

No perfect solution, IMO. Some aren't bad tho.
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Re: Local Streaming Channels

Postby gearcrasher » Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:51 am

Rural tv watchers really got screwed in the digital transition. Power was cut and the lost bandwidth sold to private companies. At our lake cottage we could get 8 channels with a rooftop antenna before digital. Now we get none. Now you have to pay for cable or sat to get your locals. The locals get a piece of this so are not motivated to stream for free.
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Re: Local Streaming Channels

Postby FX4 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:09 am

I don't know about that. I have a vacation home in Naples FL. Three television stations just upgraded their transmitters and towers because outlying viewers were having problems getting their signal. I must say it improved two stations for me.
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Re: Local Streaming Channels

Postby mikebdoss » Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:47 am

Indeed. I got a lot of static and spotty channels before, but after the transition, I get dozens of channels beautifully, including many in HD.
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Re: Local Streaming Channels

Postby gearcrasher » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:25 pm

FX4 wrote:I don't know about that. I have a vacation home in Naples FL. Three television stations just upgraded their transmitters and towers because outlying viewers were having problems getting their signal. I must say it improved two stations for me.

Naples is like downtown NYC compared to northern Michigan! The Rolling hills and big trees here in NC really hurt reception as well. I am in Raleigh but still have a problem when the wind is blowing. Never heard of wind being a problem before digital. Really if a $25 antenna is all that is holding OP back he can get plans for one of those coat hanger ones. BTW FX4, thanks for iplayer info.
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