Roku 3 HDCP on HDMI

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Roku 3 HDCP on HDMI

Postby thartnett » Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:39 am

I can understand Roku infecting the HDMI port with DRM when streaming content from apps that play copyrighted material. But if I'm playing media from my USB drive, the HDMI port should send this without HDCP. It's my media and I want to play it out to devices that aren't infected with DRM. Seems like a bug no?
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Re: Roku 3 HDCP on HDMI

Postby philsoft » Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:47 am

thartnett wrote:I can understand Roku infecting the HDMI port with DRM when streaming content from apps that play copyrighted material. But if I'm playing media from my USB drive, the HDMI port should send this without HDCP. It's my media and I want to play it out to devices that aren't infected with DRM. Seems like a bug no?


Not to me. The Roku is not meant to be recorded from, it is strictly meant for streaming video. The fact that a USB port is included at all is a perk, since Roku really has just about zero interest in local streaming, their main focus is as an IPTV device.
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Re: Roku 3 HDCP on HDMI

Postby destruk » Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:52 am

"The HDMI standard does not require HDCP. However, it is required by industry groups and governmental regulation."
"In the United States, the FCC has mandated that beginning July 1, 2005, all HDTVs 36 inches and larger labeled “Digital Cable Ready” must include either a DVI/HDCP or HDMI/HDCP interface. In addition, either a DVI/HDCP or HDMI/HDCP interface is required for:
-Models with screen sizes 25 to 35 inches: 50% of a manufacturer's or importer's models manufactured or imported after July 1, 2005; 100% of such models manufactured or imported after July 1, 2006.
-Models with screen sizes 13 to 24 inches: 100% of a manufacturer's or importer's models manufactured or imported after July 1, 2007. [Source: Code of Federal Regulations, Section 15.123]"
"The FCC approved HDCP as a "Digital Output Protection Technology" on August 4, 2004. Analog outputs from digital receivers do not require output protections, but the analog output must be limited to a resolution of 480p, which effectively limits sets with analog input to non-HD resolutions."
"In Europe, the European Information & Communications Technology Industry Association (EICTA) in 2005 mandated that all HDTVs displaying the “HD Ready” logo must include HDMI or DVI inputs and support for HDCP. In August 2005, the Cable and Satellite Broadcast Association of Asia (CASBAA) recommended that HDMI (or DVI) and HDCP 'be included on every set-top box capable of outputting uncompressed high definition content.'"

source -- HDMI.ORG

If this requirement isn't important to you, you can get a Roku 2 which has composite output.
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Re: Roku 3 HDCP on HDMI

Postby thartnett » Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:57 am

philsoft wrote:
thartnett wrote:I can understand Roku infecting the HDMI port with DRM when streaming content from apps that play copyrighted material. But if I'm playing media from my USB drive, the HDMI port should send this without HDCP. It's my media and I want to play it out to devices that aren't infected with DRM. Seems like a bug no?


Not to me. The Roku is not meant to be recorded from, it is strictly meant for streaming video. The fact that a USB port is included at all is a perk, since Roku really has just about zero interest in local streaming, their main focus is as an IPTV device.


Nonsense. I don't care what their "intentions" were, I bought the device based on the feature set as advertised. And that feature is broken. And I'm not recording. I'm trying to feed into a system that doesn't support HDCP over HDMI. They exist.
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Re: Roku 3 HDCP on HDMI

Postby thartnett » Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:59 am

destruk wrote:"

If this requirement isn't important to you, you can get a Roku 2 which has composite output.


I bought a Roku 3 and I want to use it in a perfectly reasonable way over HDMI. There is no mandate anywhere to apply DRM to content owned by the user. Blu-ray players turn off HDCP when non-copyrighted discs are inserted. Roku should do the same. It's just lazy not to do it.
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Re: Roku 3 HDCP on HDMI

Postby philsoft » Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:13 am

thartnett wrote:
philsoft wrote:
thartnett wrote:I can understand Roku infecting the HDMI port with DRM when streaming content from apps that play copyrighted material. But if I'm playing media from my USB drive, the HDMI port should send this without HDCP. It's my media and I want to play it out to devices that aren't infected with DRM. Seems like a bug no?


Not to me. The Roku is not meant to be recorded from, it is strictly meant for streaming video. The fact that a USB port is included at all is a perk, since Roku really has just about zero interest in local streaming, their main focus is as an IPTV device.


Nonsense. I don't care what their "intentions" were, I bought the device based on the feature set as advertised. And that feature is broken. And I'm not recording. I'm trying to feed into a system that doesn't support HDCP over HDMI. They exist.


The feature is NOT broken. I didn't say you were trying to record. My point was that the reason for the HDCP is to PREVENT recording. Anyway, I am confident that it isn't going to change, because the content providers are not going to WANT it to change.
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Re: Roku 3 HDCP on HDMI

Postby trekkeriii » Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:28 am

thartnett wrote:
destruk wrote:"

If this requirement isn't important to you, you can get a Roku 2 which has composite output.


I bought a Roku 3 and I want to use it in a perfectly reasonable way over HDMI. There is no mandate anywhere to apply DRM to content owned by the user. Blu-ray players turn off HDCP when non-copyrighted discs are inserted. Roku should do the same. It's just lazy not to do it.


This is my speculation and opinion on this: Roku has always been all about simplicity over features. Probably requires a bit more processing power to implement DRM detection, and probably additional hardware on the box (requiring the box to be a bit bigger and also more power). Since Roku HAS to comply with DRM regulations because of DMCA, they chose to implement it so HDCP was always on. Roku's goal was to make IPTV simple to stream to the TV with as little power as possible and also with the idea of making easy for the users that say "I just like to turn the TV on and off and flip the channels". USB player was kind of a late addition back when the Roku HD-XR came out (and later the XDS, XS, and 3). Roku doesn't support very many formats to begin with. If you want a device that is more local content friendly, then you need to supplement the Roku with another device. I use a BluRay player that supports Windows File Sharing (Samba) as another way to watch content if Plex fails in my case. I've found times Plex decodes more than my BluRay anymore.
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Re: Roku 3 HDCP on HDMI

Postby max mike » Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:16 am

thartnett wrote:
philsoft wrote:
thartnett wrote:I can understand Roku infecting the HDMI port with DRM when streaming content from apps that play copyrighted material. But if I'm playing media from my USB drive, the HDMI port should send this without HDCP. It's my media and I want to play it out to devices that aren't infected with DRM. Seems like a bug no?


Not to me. The Roku is not meant to be recorded from, it is strictly meant for streaming video. The fact that a USB port is included at all is a perk, since Roku really has just about zero interest in local streaming, their main focus is as an IPTV device.


Nonsense. I don't care what their "intentions" were, I bought the device based on the feature set as advertised. And that feature is broken. And I'm not recording. I'm trying to feed into a system that doesn't support HDCP over HDMI. They exist.


Yea it is "broken" if "broken" means working exactly as intended.

Roku was designed as a content delivery device intended to deliver that content from providers that require DRM. You want and need another device.
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Re: Roku 3 HDCP on HDMI

Postby thartnett » Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:08 am

max mike wrote:
thartnett wrote:
philsoft wrote:Not to me. The Roku is not meant to be recorded from, it is strictly meant for streaming video. The fact that a USB port is included at all is a perk, since Roku really has just about zero interest in local streaming, their main focus is as an IPTV device.


Nonsense. I don't care what their "intentions" were, I bought the device based on the feature set as advertised. And that feature is broken. And I'm not recording. I'm trying to feed into a system that doesn't support HDCP over HDMI. They exist.


Yea it is "broken" if "broken" means working exactly as intended.

Roku was designed as a content delivery device intended to deliver that content from providers that require DRM. You want and need another device.


Perhaps you can explain to me exactly how these "intentions" are to be decoded prior to purchase? The device has the feature set I want. Industry standard practice is to turn off DRM when non-protected sources are played. The Roku can't play protected sources from USB. The theorizing by trekerii is likely spot on but it doesn't mean Roku was right in taking this short cut. It's the consumer's responsibility to speak out over DRM abuses, intentional or not. Your defense of their "intentions" rings hollow.
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Re: Roku 3 HDCP on HDMI

Postby kc8pql » Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:55 am

Suggest you return it for a refund as it doesn't do what you want.
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Re: Roku 3 HDCP on HDMI

Postby jeffrok » Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:54 am

kc8pql wrote:Suggest you return it for a refund as it doesn't do what you want.


True.. Complaining about a product's design will not fix the current product.
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Re: Roku 3 HDCP on HDMI

Postby trekkeriii » Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:14 pm

I think RokuShawnS will make note of this thread and put it in his feature request notes. I think this is definitely a feature request/change more than a bug. I don't think there's an industry standard saying HDCP has to be off if the content is not protected. I've never seen DRM or copyright protections as part of the specs I have ever looked at for any device. I understand the frustrations of dealing with DRM, but this is a whole other topic. Bottom line Roku as is will not work without HDCP support on the TV. Roku doesn't usually announce or promise feature changes until they are released, so you will have to just hope it gets changed.
Last edited by trekkeriii on Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Roku 3 HDCP on HDMI

Postby RokuShawnS » Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:17 pm

trekkeriii wrote:I think RokuShawnS will make note of this thread and put it in his feature request notes. I think this is definitely a feature request/change more than a bug. I don't think there's an industry standard saying HDCP has to be off if the content is not protected.


Heh, working on my weekly report, and already added it.

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Re: Roku 3 HDCP on HDMI

Postby zm3sichi » Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:17 pm

thartnett wrote:I can understand Roku infecting the HDMI port with DRM when streaming content from apps that play copyrighted material. But if I'm playing media from my USB drive, the HDMI port should send this without HDCP. It's my media and I want to play it out to devices that aren't infected with DRM. Seems like a bug no?


Just curious... how does the DRM/HDCP manifest itself when you attempt to play the "affected" content from a Roku? What behaviors are you noticing?
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Re: Roku 3 HDCP on HDMI

Postby thartnett » Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:48 am

The issue manifests itself the same way as when you try to play copyrighted content over non HDCP links--you get an intercept message about non-compliant connections on the monitor (or other sink device).

I'm glad Roku will look at this--
not to beat a dead horse but if CE companies have a cavalier attitude on how they implement copyright protection, and it impedes non-infringing users, consumers need to call them out. We're already at a disadvantage in so many ways. HDCP does *nothing* to prevent piracy in general, it really just annoys consumers (when it fails, and it often does) and people interested in "fair use". When it's implemented in an overreaching way, by intention or not, it just makes things worse.

So my point here is less to get this fixed tomorrow, but to right a wrong.
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