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Voldemort
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Re: Anyone know when Roku 4 will be released?

Sat Aug 22, 2015 12:00 am

EnTerr wrote:
Roku3 approximately matches FireTV Stick in fire power. Sans support for gamepad controllers.


The Firestick has more memory and a faster cpu (Dual core Cortex A9 @1000 MHz vs Dual core Cortex A9 @900 MHz). I think the GPUs are the same. I suspect the doubling of the memory would have a bigger impact on performance than the 10% clock speed increase, but the cpus are comparable.

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Last edited by Voldemort on Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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NinetySeven
Posts: 91
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Re: Anyone know when Roku 4 will be released?

Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:03 am

Voldemort wrote:
NinetySeven wrote:
I wouldn't want the Roku to become some type of DVR or OTA box, it's not what it's for.

Why would you not want this added functionality? It's kind of like not wanting a radio in a car because listening to music is not what cars are for.

Let me clarify your analogy: "It's kind of like not wanting a $7,000 radio upgrade option in my car because I only listen to traffic and weather". Makes more sense that way, right?

In another thread I have people attacking me (with no support from you guys) because I asked for the Roku remote to have TV power and volume buttons on it. People are telling me how Roku isn't a universal remote company and crap like that. So if adding 3 buttons to the remote is such a stretch, changing the entire design of the Roku being a small streaming device would be crazy. It would drive up the price and turn most people away.

OTA is VERY limited. Most people who use an antenna don't need a channel guide nor a DVR.
 
NinetySeven
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Re: Anyone know when Roku 4 will be released?

Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:05 am

Voldemort wrote:
EnTerr wrote:
Roku3 approximately matches FireTV Stick in fire power. Sans support for gamepad controllers.


Not really...

Image

He said Fire TV Stick.
 
Voldemort
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Re: Anyone know when Roku 4 will be released?

Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:52 am

NinetySeven wrote:
Voldemort wrote:
EnTerr wrote:
Roku3 approximately matches FireTV Stick in fire power. Sans support for gamepad controllers.


Not really...

Image

He said Fire TV Stick.

Thanks. Surprisingly, he is correct. I am kind of surprised the Stick is close. I read somewhere that the spec for the fire stick was determined by Google's recommendation for playing YT apps. It makes sense that Roku would have used the same spec as a guideline for the Roku 3.
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kc8pql
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Re: Anyone know when Roku 4 will be released?

Sat Aug 22, 2015 7:44 am

NinetySeven wrote:
OTA is VERY limited. Most people who use an antenna don't need a channel guide nor a DVR.

Not really. I get roughly 40 OTA channels in my market. That's not particularly unusual. A channel guide is very useful.
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NinetySeven
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Re: Anyone know when Roku 4 will be released?

Sat Aug 22, 2015 7:54 am

kc8pql wrote:
NinetySeven wrote:
OTA is VERY limited. Most people who use an antenna don't need a channel guide nor a DVR.

Not really. I get roughly 40 OTA channels in my market. That's not particularly unusual. A channel guide is very useful.

Yeah, I got more than that probably, but most of them are utter crap. Most people who use an antenna are using it for the few major network channels. And we all have a channel guide in our phone or tablet.

This just isn't what the Roku is all about.
 
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kc8pql
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Re: Anyone know when Roku 4 will be released?

Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:02 am

^ In case you're not aware of it, there is a private channel, code What's On, that works quite well.
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Voldemort
Posts: 437
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Re: Anyone know when Roku 4 will be released?

Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:18 am

NinetySeven wrote:
Voldemort wrote:
NinetySeven wrote:
I wouldn't want the Roku to become some type of DVR or OTA box, it's not what it's for.

Why would you not want this added functionality? It's kind of like not wanting a radio in a car because listening to music is not what cars are for.

Let me clarify your analogy: "It's kind of like not wanting a $7,000 radio upgrade option in my car because I only listen to traffic and weather". Makes more sense that way, right?

In another thread I have people attacking me (with no support from you guys) because I asked for the Roku remote to have TV power and volume buttons on it. People are telling me how Roku isn't a universal remote company and crap like that. So if adding 3 buttons to the remote is such a stretch, changing the entire design of the Roku being a small streaming device would be crazy. It would drive up the price and turn most people away.

OTA is VERY limited. Most people who use an antenna don't need a channel guide nor a DVR.


I'm not attacking you. I'm not even supporting GKL. I don't have much interest in discussion of replacement remotes. I do like tv, though, and I stream and have ota, so this is interesting to me.

People talk about software ecosystems. There is also a hardware ecosystem -- the sum total of the hardware used to watch television. The user interface to these ecosystems is the ten foot guide and the remote. The idea of running apps from the EPG is very appealing to many. Mohu and Channel Master do this well. The idea of a single remote for all functions is very appealing to many -- just ask Harmony! Tivo and Channel Master do this well. In my market (Boston), we have 40 channels. A guide is very helpful -- especially a grid guide (vs tiled). OTA is linear no ondemand, so it is VERY helpful to be cable to time shift. Trick play always matters -- especially if you like sports. When we cut the cord, I did not think we needed a DVR since we only had two shows recorded on the Comcast DVR (Bonnie Hunt, Who Wants to be a Millionaire) and no one would admit to recording them. Within a couple weeks, we realized how often we paused, rewound, and fast forwarded live programming. Within a month, I had a DTVPal DVR. I started looking for a second the day I unboxed the first. We have a DVR on every television in the house.
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Voldemort
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Re: Anyone know when Roku 4 will be released?

Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:48 am

NinetySeven wrote:
Yeah, I got more than that probably, but most of them are utter crap. Most people who use an antenna are using it for the few major network channels. And we all have a channel guide in our phone or tablet.

I do too, but there are only forty or so I care about. I'm not sure what you consider crap, but here are some of the channels I do not...

2.1 WGBH Boston (PBS Prime)
2.2 PBS World
4.1 WBZ Boston (CBS)
4.2 Decades
5.1 WCVB Boston (ABC)
5.2 MeTV
7.1 WHDH Boston (NBC)
7.2 This TV
8.2 Heroes and Icons
9.1 WMUR Manchester, NH (ABC)
9.2 MeTV
11.1 WENH Durham (PBS Prime)
11.2 PBS Explore
11.3 PBS World
11.4 PBS Create
25.1 WFXT Boston (Fox)
25.2 Fox Movies!
25.3 LAFF
38.1 WSBK Boston (MyTV)
44.1 WGBX Boston (PBS)
44.3 PBS Create
44.4 PBS Kids
50.1 WBIN Derry, NH
50.2 Antenna TV
50.3 Grit
56.1 WLVI Boston (CW)
56.2 ZUUS
62.1 Cozi
66.2 BounceTV
66.3 GetTV
66.4 Escape
68.1 ION
68.2 Qubo
68.3 ION Life

NinetySeven wrote:
This just isn't what the Roku is all about.


I know. I didn't look at this thread for more than two weeks because I wasn't particularly interested in four pages of speculation and disclaimers. When I checked the last page this morning, I saw that the conversation had taken an interesting turn. I do not think the Roku 4 should have a tuner or a disk. In fact, I don't think Roku should make another box. I do, however, think Roku+DVR+>TiVo. Seems like CM would be a good partner for a Roku service.
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gkl
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Re: Anyone know when Roku 4 will be released?

Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:25 pm

NinetySeven wrote:
kc8pql wrote:
NinetySeven wrote:
OTA is VERY limited. Most people who use an antenna don't need a channel guide nor a DVR.

Not really. I get roughly 40 OTA channels in my market. That's not particularly unusual. A channel guide is very useful.

Yeah, I got more than that probably, but most of them are utter crap. Most people who use an antenna are using it for the few major network channels. And we all have a channel guide in our phone or tablet.

This just isn't what the Roku is all about.


Maybe. But TiVO appears that it is something cord cutters want.

Those who don't understand what business they are in get run over. See the classic article on this point at https://hbr.org/2006/10/what-business-are-you-in-classic-advice-from-theodore-levitt

The market is for video entertainment. Streaming is one method to deliver this, but not the only one. Not to easily integrate free OTA into one package is to miss the business. TiVO and Channel Master see this. Others will. Simple is better for a mass market; integration is better for a mass market.
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Voldemort
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Re: Anyone know when Roku 4 will be released?

Wed Aug 26, 2015 3:42 pm

gkl wrote:
Maybe. But TiVO appears that it is something cord cutters want.

Those who don't understand what business they are in get run over. See the classic article on this point at https://hbr.org/2006/10/what-business-are-you-in-classic-advice-from-theodore-levitt

The market is for video entertainment. Streaming is one method to deliver this, but not the only one. Not to easily integrate free OTA into one package is to miss the business. TiVO and Channel Master see this. Others will. Simple is better for a mass market; integration is better for a mass market.

Unfortunately, the discussion of topics like this tends to be dominated by very passionate people. Most of these people coagulate around forums that support their favorite solution. They stick their fingers in their ears and spew commercials for that solution. I'm as guilty of that as the next guy.

TiVo has been a pretty good listener. They listen on capability and price. So, we have a TiVo Roamio/OTA that streams Amazon Instant Video/Prime, Vudu, Netflix, YouTube, Hulu Plus, MLB.tv, and Plex which costs $300. Channel Master listens too (Linear OTT and Sling TV are attractive), but has trouble executing on those ideas. I believe this is because they rely on others to execute their ideas and are constantly surprised by how expensive and difficult success is. The Channel Master name is old, but the management team looks more like a kickstarter project team than a company with a business plan. I don't even think Roku listens. Roku seems to be a guy with an idea (Netflix streamer) or two (brightscript) who is content to incrementally improve his toy while the world is washing past.

I think streaming (OTT) has a bright future, but I don't expect Roku hardware to be part of that future. Getting their apps on televisions is a great idea, but Roku needs to be on a device like the DVR+ or the TiVo and cable/satellite boxes. If there is a Roku 4, it will likely be an incremental improvement over the Roku 3. This is not enough to compete going forward.
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CanMan14
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Re: Anyone know when Roku 4 will be released?

Wed Aug 26, 2015 8:18 pm

gkl wrote:
NinetySeven wrote:
I am not following you. How is being annoyed because you have to switch your remote when changing the volume or Roku channels going to change if the Roku integrates OTA?


I'll try this again. (I covered this below in my first post on this thread.) Basically, what I am suggesting is a mashup of the DVR+ and the Roku 3.

With a DVR+, you get one seamlessly integrated interface that combines OTA and OTT, all controlled by one remote, which, in addition to controlling the DVR+ can be programmed to control essential elements of the TV to which it is attached, namely volume and on/off, without any need to switch the source back and forth. All the DVR+ lacks is most of the more popular streaming channels, such as Netflix, Hulu, Sling, Amazon, WatchESPN, MLB.TV, iHeart Radio, TuneIn, Spotify, Plex, Acorn, and a few others. If it had those, it would be exactly what I'm talking about: one devise, one remote that doesn't require changing the source, and one seamless interface. I had essentially this set up 15 years ago with a Sony VCR and Sony receiver hooked to my TV, all controlled by a single remote. It wasn't as elegant as a DVR+, but it was less clunky than the current Roku 3 attached to the TV.

What you don't get with using the TV tuner is a robust, cable-like electronic program guide. At least in my market, some of the networks don't even display what is on right then, much less an easy grid to see what is coming on next and what is coming on after that. The DVR+ does this. Why not one box that does it all and one remote to control it all without having to switch sources. Channel Master and TiVO have proven the concept can work, but they lack Roku's catalog of streaming options. This can't be rocket science.


I think I have all of this via the Roku, TabloTV, and (soon to have) Sideclick remote attachment. With this combination I currently have:
  • Full OTA on every TV in my house via the Roku's (and without a direct attached antenna) and the TabloTV app from a single centralized DVR in the basement.
  • Full OTA DVR capabilities on the Roku via the TabloTV including grid live guide (EPG) and box art title selection of recordings (using Roku TabloTV app).
I'm adding to this setup the Sideclick remote attachment to control TV power, volume, and input from the Roku remote.

So I think that the TabloTV really does what was asked for. But the solution is more than the $150 - probably double that or more with the lifetime guide data subscription (I can't remember exactly as I bought mine over a year ago). Plus the cost of the HDD and of course the Roku's on each TV. Add all of that up at it's not exactly cheap but functionally it works great and does what was asked for.
 
CanMan14
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Re: Anyone know when Roku 4 will be released?

Wed Aug 26, 2015 8:26 pm

NinetySeven wrote:
... In another thread I have people attacking me (with no support from you guys) because I asked for the Roku remote to have TV power and volume buttons on it. People are telling me how Roku isn't a universal remote company and crap like that...


If you want to add those buttons try: http://www.sideclickremotes.com/ . I'm going to give it a go just for giggles. FYI
 
Voldemort
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Re: Anyone know when Roku 4 will be released?

Thu Aug 27, 2015 12:09 am

CanMan14 wrote:
I think I have all of this via the Roku, TabloTV, and (soon to have) Sideclick remote attachment.

You pretty much do. Assuming a four tuner tablo, a 2t disk, and four televisions, your cost per set for this is $550/4+$27+$90=$254.50 for one tuner and 500g of storage. For a DVR+ and a Roku plus a 1t disk, your cost will be $390, but yo will get twice the storage and two tuners. For a TiVo and three Minis, your cost will be $300+$150x3 or $750 or $187.50 per set. With the Tivo, you will get 125g and one tuner per set.

With the DVR+, if a DVR fails, you still have a DVR on three sets and replacement is $250. With the Tablo, you are down 100% and replacement is $300. With the Tablo, you are down 100% and replacement is unknown (Lifetime is not always available). With less than four sets, the cost/set of the Tablo and Tivo increases while the DVR+ remains the same.

The rest is really just preferences.
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Heyitsrick
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Re: Anyone know when Roku 4 will be released?

Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:23 am

Voldemort wrote:

I don't even think Roku listens. Roku seems to be a guy with an idea (Netflix streamer) or two (brightscript) who is content to incrementally improve his toy while the world is washing past.


Funny that you say this at a time when the latest sales figures show Roku at the top of the charts, while big, bad Apple has fallen to fourth place. Perhaps you meant that company out of Cupertino when you said "...while the world is washing past"? http://www.parksassociates.com/blog/art ... -landscape


Voldemort wrote:
I think streaming (OTT) has a bright future, but I don't expect Roku hardware to be part of that future. Getting their apps on televisions is a great idea, but Roku needs to be on a device like the DVR+ or the TiVo and cable/satellite boxes. If there is a Roku 4, it will likely be an incremental improvement over the Roku 3. This is not enough to compete going forward.


Surprised to read this. I'm sure there were people who never thought Roku would enter into partnerships with television manufacturers to showcase their technology and services. Since they did - and before other "big players" - why in the world would a DVR option w/OTA (or agreements with cable ops) be out of the realm of possibility? I'm not getting this. They've already demonstrated they're not going to just offer incremental box updates. Given that, why would you think they wouldn't want to explore or foresee other means of offering their services? That, honestly, seems directly contradicted by what they've already done. I guess you think they're just going to rest on their proverbial laurels now. I'd tend to give them more credit than that.

You mentioned Tivo as a company that listens. Well, they're still holding firm on the monthly/lifetime subscription model for essentially a channel guide and DVR management. Granted, everyone loves the interface. Tivo occasionally has sales on its OTA Roamio's lifetime subscription pricing, which can reduce it to $300 ($50 for the box, $250 for half-price lifetime subscription). But they just can't quite let go of that model. Were they to settle on $200-$250 for the OTA Roamio with no additional fees, you'd probably be real close to the killer app of hardware.

That said, it really seems to fall short on the number of available apps. On a humorous side note, I noticed they offer this "continuing care" warranty that covers your Tivo for the duration of the time you're subscribing. After a year, they say, you can get a replacement Tivo (not even necessarily new) for $49! if yours has a problem. Nevermind that a new Tivo Roamio costs -- $49, lol. I hate the subscription model. Tivo - set yourself free and soar. Ditch the subscriptions.

Amazon has somewhat of an advantage in that they can throw out the Fire TV box as a loss-leader and/or bundle it with Prime because they can make up the revenue elsewhere. A company like Roku doesn't have that option.

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