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Basil
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Re: Looks like 7.0 firmware is rolling out

Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:54 am

bcm00re wrote:
Basil wrote:
While I'm frustrated as others with the WatchESPN replays not working (at least, none of the ones I've wanted to watch work on my Roku 3, model 4200) I'm not going to call a Roku employee a liar because fixing stuff takes longer than I want it to.
Perhaps you don't understand software development as well as someone who has worked it for about 20 years like myself. First and foremost, the fact Roku even released -- or rather pushed (because we were forced to it without any choice) -- this version 7 software without properly testing it is extremely unprofessional and makes the company look really, really bad. NCAA Football is probably the biggest, most popular sport in the USA right now (at least as far at $$$$ goes) and the fact they didn't even bother to verify their software "upgrade" worked properly with it reeks of sloppy workmanship that was rushed to release. And the fact their software engineers aren't smart enough to fix this (very big) problem after almost a month shows they don't have the best or brightest working for them -- but I guess we already knew that because that same team released this bug-ridden version 7 software in the first place. If Roku's software team was using any configuration control tools at all for software development, it should be fairly easy to isolate the source of the problem. Part of me has to wonder if their software development is being done offshore like in India -- that sure would explain a lot. Even without understanding the problem there is absolutely no reason that Roku boxes couldn't be rolled back to the previous software version (that worked fine with WatchESPN and everything else), but since that would cost Roku a lot of time and money they would rather just let their customers suffer with this half-baked version 7 software.

What Roku needs now is some bad press on this matter because until they are worried about it effecting their bottom dollar they seeming aren't worrying about it.

Oh, Wise One, who wrote his first computer program 17 years after I wrote my first one (albeit, mine was in college in 1978), allow me to offer some thoughts.

Roku software 7.0 is a complete rewrite. It's not an edit of 6.x, but a from the ground up rewrite. That means a different development process.

From my sources, WatchESPN was tested and working in Roku 2 & 3 boxes during the beta period. That indicates an update from the app developer contributed to the issue. I am surprised at the length of time it's taking to resolve. That indicates the problem occurred with an update to WatchESPN, but is caused by a bug in 7.0 that wasn't discovered in testing (remember, WatchESPN at the time was working on Roku 2 & 3 boxes). The sports app that was problematic in the beta testing was, according to my source, NBC Sports, which is still working.

Was testing adequate? I think not. On that we agree. We disagree on calling a statement of a Roku mod a lie.

Apart from WatchESPN replays, I'm having no issues with my Roku. It's not what I call bug-ridden. Users of boxes that have been discontinued for years (plural) are experiencing many issues, based on feedback I've seen on the forum. Testing on the discontinued but still supported boxes was woefully inadequate. I expect Roku has learned from this.

Oh, and you'll be joining up the Beta program to put your expertise to work, right? I'm going to request access. See you over there?
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bcm00re
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Re: Looks like 7.0 firmware is rolling out

Wed Dec 09, 2015 11:55 am

Basil wrote:
bcm00re wrote:
Oh, Wise One, who wrote his first computer program 17 years after I wrote my first one (albeit, mine was in college in 1978), allow me to offer some thoughts.

Roku software 7.0 is a complete rewrite. It's not an edit of 6.x, but a from the ground up rewrite. That means a different development process.

From my sources, WatchESPN was tested and working in Roku 2 & 3 boxes during the beta period. That indicates an update from the app developer contributed to the issue. I am surprised at the length of time it's taking to resolve. That indicates the problem occurred with an update to WatchESPN, but is caused by a bug in 7.0 that wasn't discovered in testing (remember, WatchESPN at the time was working on Roku 2 & 3 boxes). The sports app that was problematic in the beta testing was, according to my source, NBC Sports, which is still working.

Was testing adequate? I think not. On that we agree. We disagree on calling a statement of a Roku mod a lie.

Apart from WatchESPN replays, I'm having no issues with my Roku. It's not what I call bug-ridden. Users of boxes that have been discontinued for years (plural) are experiencing many issues, based on feedback I've seen on the forum. Testing on the discontinued but still supported boxes was woefully inadequate. I expect Roku has learned from this.

Oh, and you'll be joining up the Beta program to put your expertise to work, right? I'm going to request access. See you over there?
Writing some code in college and working in the an industry developing software for 20+ years aren't the same thing...at least not in my book.

I never called anyone a liar -- you really need to stop putting words in my mouth. What I did was question the accuracy and sincerity of a (company-line) statement he proclaimed. Actions speak much louder than words, and I have seen none from Roku. Perhaps I've missed it, but Roku doesn't even seem to acknowledge there is any problem with WatchESPN on their devices.

While your sources are telling you all the 'right' things to deflect blame from Roku, the fact of the matter is WatchESPN (replays) worked prior to their version 7 software push to me and everyone else I have seen post about it. And they continue to work on every other device EXCEPT for Roku. Perhaps the software tested during the beta period isn't the same as what was pushed out to all users, and/or perhaps beta testers only watched live ESPN programming and never tried to view a replay of an NCAA football game. If should be fairly easy for one of your many sources to confirm/deny if the WatchESPN channel changed around the same time as Roki pushed version 7. I suspect the answer is it hasn't changed in quite some time. So that would imply the blame lies with Roku. At least we can agree that testing (of version 7) was woefully inadequate -- but that is being a bit generous IMO.

I initially was going to their beta program, but with the "release" version of their software being so incredibly poor -- I am truly afraid to try anything they label as "beta". I might look into it if they could only push the beta software updates to only one of my Roku boxes. It wouldn't be acceptable to my family to be constantly dealing with buggy Roku software on our main television; we have cut the cord and use Roku to access all our TV viewing (via Hulu, Netflix, Sling TV, and WatchESPN).
 
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DBDukes
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Re: Looks like 7.0 firmware is rolling out

Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:10 pm

I'm the source. I tested WatchESPN and other apps during the beta test. It worked for me on my Roku 3.

I'm at work right now (lunch break) and can't check the date of the WatchESPN channel on Roku. But you can. Check it and see what the date is. Is it before or after the v7.0 code roll?
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bcm00re
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Re: Looks like 7.0 firmware is rolling out

Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:11 pm

Here are a few other recent threads titles I see today:
    Youtube practically unusable post Roku 7.0 Update
    Roku 4 - 4400x - Sling TV Crashing and Network Issues
    Roku LT freezes on software 7.0

So much for those claiming that this new software isn't buggy.
 
bcm00re
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Re: Looks like 7.0 firmware is rolling out

Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:15 pm

DBDukes wrote:
I'm the source. I tested WatchESPN and other apps during the beta test. It worked for me on my Roku 3.

I'm at work right now (lunch break) and can't check the date of the WatchESPN channel on Roku. But you can. Check it and see what the date is. Is it before or after the v7.0 code roll?
Thanks for chiming in! I thought I had looked at that and noted it had been quite some time since the last update, but I wasn't absolutely certain and I didn't have the actual date to post -- so I originally didn't want to make that claim. I too am at work; I will check this evening though.

Can you say with certainty that you used Roku's WatchESPN channel to view a replay (not live) NCAA football game back when you were beta testing?
 
captivater
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Re: Looks like 7.0 firmware is rolling out

Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:44 pm

bcm00re wrote:
Can you say with certainty that you used Roku's WatchESPN channel to view a replay (not live) NCAA football game back when you were beta testing?


Quick reminder: No one involved in the beta should be saying anything about it due to an NDA agreement.

That said, WatchESPN works for MOST of its content. Highlight clips work. Live streams work. As for NCAAF replays, clearly they are crashing the box and were overlooked in the Beta.
If I were to surmise a guess, there exists a codec incompatibility that both Roku and ESPN's dev teams need to address cooperatively - tackling it from both ends.

Fast paced as live sports are, organizational changes involving DRM policies, encryption, codecs, etc. take a long time in any HUMONGOUS company like ABC/ESPN.
Changes need to be approved bureaucratically - from division to division. Endless stamps of approval to even change an item in the vending machine.
Last edited by captivater on Wed Dec 09, 2015 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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RokuDale
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Re: Looks like 7.0 firmware is rolling out

Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:46 pm

The more people in the beta program the better.
If you have more than one Roku, it is best to leave some of them out of the beta program. Once in the beta program you can designate which of your Roku's you are willing to get the beta software.
There is a bug in the 7.0 firmware which affects ESPN on all platforms.
As one of the engineers here, I'm sorry for the impact this has had on users of the Roku and the ESPN channel.
rokudale
Last edited by RokuDale on Thu Dec 10, 2015 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
bcm00re
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Re: Looks like 7.0 firmware is rolling out

Wed Dec 09, 2015 1:45 pm

captivater wrote:
That said, WatchESPN works for MOST of its content. Highlight clips work. Live streams work.
Perhaps that is true, but I wouldn't give the same weight to a 30-second clip versus a 3+ hour NCAAF game. NCAAF is arguably the most popular sport that WatchESPN offers the ability to view replays of entire games -- so to suddenly loose that functionality is without a doubt a bid deal.

captivater wrote:
Fast paced as live sports are, organizational changes involving DRM policies, encryption, codecs, etc. take a long time in any HUMONGOUS company like ABC/ESPN. Changes need to be approved bureaucratically - from division to division. Endless stamps of approval to even change an item in the vending machine.
Roku wouldn't need to do any of that to get WatchESPN working for their users -- they could simply give users the ability to roll back their Roku software to the previous version of the software they were using prior to version 7.
Last edited by bcm00re on Wed Dec 09, 2015 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
bcm00re
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Re: Looks like 7.0 firmware is rolling out

Wed Dec 09, 2015 1:49 pm

RokuDale wrote:
The more people in the beta program the better.
If you have more than one Roku, it is best to leave some of them out of the beta program. Once in the beta program you can designate which of your Roku's you are willing to get the beta software.
There is a bug in the 7.0 firmware for 7.0 which affects ESPN on all platforms.
As one of the engineers here, I'm sorry for the impact this has had on users of the Roku and the ESPN channel.
rokudale
Good to know that about the beta program. I'll look into it this weekend.

And thank you for acknowledging this problem. I can understand why Roku is reluctant to allow users to roll back to older software, but the powers-that-be should be seriously be considering it because it is taking so long to get this problem resolved.
 
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Re: Looks like 7.0 firmware is rolling out

Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:12 pm

bcm00re wrote:
Roku wouldn't need to do any of that to get WatchESPN working for their users -- they could simply give users the ability to roll back their Roku software to the previous version of the software they were using prior to version 7.


I can venture a few guesses as to the some of the implications tied up in this update like a larger install base to court services. Some others are less known such as new tracking parameters, or changes to DRM handshakes and protocols.

Highly improbable a reversion to 6.2 will ever be permitted. More likely than not, ESPN will roll out a fix sooner rather than later, as the issue is affecting ALL of their users on RokuOS 7.0 :wink:
 
lillist
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Re: Looks like 7.0 firmware is rolling out

Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:39 pm

So I just bought a hisense Roku tv and really need os7 for dorm and hotel connect. But I haven't gotten the rollout! What gives? ? It's a week into December. How much more do I have to wait! ?
 
robb213
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Re: Looks like 7.0 firmware is rolling out

Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:18 pm

So I confirmed my thoughts, after hearing the same from others.

It seems that regardless of the channel, as long as they use the Roku developed player framework (or whatever you wish to call it), Roku's own standard put forth for other developers to use like that in PBS, Funimation, FXNow, and many more, it will cause eventual out-of-sync audio and freezing video. Having watched such channels extensively, including others whom use their own custom framework (Netflix) which run perfect, I can say with 100% certainty that something is going on with Roku's own. After a period of time, Roku's own will cause audio to continue and become out of sync/cutting off, with the video freezing and playing constant catch-up until the unit utterly freezes (hard crash) and reboots; by time, I literally mean a few hours or so...which shouldn't happen regardless of the length of time in a perfect world.

Roku CS said they "isolated" the issue and asked me to RMA my out-of-warranty Roku 3 4200X, but I've since acquired more Roku 3 4320X's (X and R are the same anyways) and replicated the same exact problem. So as much as I appreciate that RMA even though the warranty has expired, I think I'm just going to keep the unit as it's obviously going to affect any Roku 3 I use.


RokuDale, even though I know your company won't publicly talk about software/hardware bugs (which I think is asinine, but I digress), can you at least, or someone else, acknowledge that you've read what I've stated? Usually when I pass on specific information to any CS division at any company, I'm just used to it being ignored and not recognized ever, as if lost in the lines of communication.
Last edited by robb213 on Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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RokuShawnS
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Re: Looks like 7.0 firmware is rolling out

Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:26 pm

robb213 wrote:
can you at least, or someone else, acknowledge that you've read what I've stated? Usually when I pass on specific information to any CS division at any company, I'm just used to it being ignored and not recognized ever, as if lost in the lines of communication.


I try to read every thread (though some can get buried from time-to-time), and report major call-outs to engineering as they come in.

lillist wrote:
So I just bought a hisense Roku tv and really need os7 for dorm and hotel connect. But I haven't gotten the rollout! What gives? ? It's a week into December. How much more do I have to wait! ?


It's a staggered rollout across various devices (some devices will receive it earlier than others). Please be patient.

C. Shawn Smith

*Edit* --Correction: version 7 firmware for RokuTV is still in beta. We expect the rollout to begin sometime in January for these models.
C. Shawn Smith
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bcm00re
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Re: Looks like 7.0 firmware is rolling out

Fri Dec 11, 2015 7:33 am

RokuShawnS wrote:
*Edit* --Correction: version 7 firmware for RokuTV is still in beta. We expect the rollout to begin sometime in January for these models.
I would argue it is still in beta for Rokus too! With version 7 I've lost WatchESPN functionality that is very important to me. Imagine if Dish Network or DirecTV pushed down a software changed that didn't allow users to record ESPN channels that would be HUGE -- and that is effectively what Roku has done here.
 
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Basil
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Re: Looks like 7.0 firmware is rolling out

Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:19 am

bcm00re wrote:
...With version 7 I've lost WatchESPN functionality that is very important to me. Imagine if Dish Network or DirecTV pushed down a software changed that didn't allow users to record ESPN channels that would be HUGE -- and that is effectively what Roku has done here.

Yes, that is an issue. And, as bowl season approaches -- the first bowls are in 8 days -- this will become more and more of a frustration for Roku users. Not good when this is the time of years that people are buying electronics devices such as set-top boxes ... and returning same. The timing is not good.

While I'm sure TPTB recognize this, it might not be a bad idea to remind them when it comes to prioritizing and scheduling fixes to the OS or to high-use apps.
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