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destruk
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4K MP4 h264/h265 content?

Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:06 pm

Will Roku 3 or Roku 4 support these video formats for 4K TVs? 3840 x 2160 UHD with either h264 or the beta h265 codecs?
 
destruk
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Re: 4K MP4 h264/h265 content?

Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:01 pm

No answer, trade secret?
 
EnTerr
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Re: 4K MP4 h264/h265 content?

Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:54 pm

Well, speaking of secrets - i am still waiting to hear if Roku output is fixed at 60 Hz refresh :wink:

I think it's safe to guess that no Roku player currently in existence will ever play 4K content. For multiple reasons, like memory and bandwidth requirements. Encoding guide lists player at H.264/AVC high profile level 4, which requires memory for at least 4 reference frames + 1 currently decoded + 1 on screen, x8MB each = ~50MB for 1920x1080 video. In the case of 4K that will require 4x more, 200MB RAM. I read that the high-efficiency video coding (H.265) can do 4K with "as little as 20-30 Mbps of bandwidth" and the maximum Roku does is 8 Mbps... over USB. Over network, Netflix's "SuperHD" 5-6Mbps has recently been implicated in causing player reboots.

And as personal opinion goes, i think Roku shouldn't even try to, unless 4K becomes broadly available, which i doubt. It's my impression that RokuCo follows the "law of the vital few" (or 80/20 rule if you will), by satisfying most existing needs with a minimal complexity solution.
 
ddevonb
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Re: 4K MP4 h264/h265 content?

Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:29 am

I think a Roku 4 would be wise to offer h.265 and 4k capability.
 
dcrandall
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Re: 4K MP4 h264/h265 content?

Tue Nov 18, 2014 5:31 pm

Wow, EnTerr, don't ever think your contributions go unappreciated.

My 0.02...
The PS4 just got 4k turned-on for video playback this year. With all the respect in the world to Roku, the PS4 is running about $400 right now with the traditional profit margin of consoles where they get no margin or take a loss...so the hardware is just a teensy bit better. If nothing else, the PS4 does have an 'off' switch for a reason...the lights dim when heavy computation is going on. ;)

At least my personal initial reaction to 4k was, "this is good, but I wouldn't pay for it." 1080p is still awfully darn good, and 4k just doesn't have the wow factor.

Last but not least...the content that really supports it, is limited. Like, content that uses the full resolution and color depth. Sure, there may be content that will use all the pixels, but was it natively filmed that way? All I have is maybe some CGI movies and if they decide to do another Blue Earth.
 
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squirreltown
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Re: 4K MP4 h264/h265 content?

Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:12 am

I think 4k is going to remain in the realm of professionals and people with lots of disposable income for the foreseeable future. Ask yourself how many playback devices you have that can do 192 khz audio. I owned a DAT machine a while back, it was awesome and was as good as 1/2 track R to R. I'm sure that the manufacturers thought it was going to replace audio cassettes - but oops! people decided that CD's were more convenient even though the audio quality was less, and then everyone really stepped off the audio-quality cliff and adopted ipods, which had pretty inferior audio quality to most everything, but the convenience just blew away all those other considerations . I wouldn't be surprised to see a similar thing happen to video.
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EnTerr
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Re: 4K MP4 h264/h265 content?

Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:17 am

squirreltown wrote:
... 192 khz audio. I owned a DAT machine a while back, it was awesome and was as good as 1/2 track R to R. I'm sure that the manufacturers thought it was going to replace audio cassettes - but oops! people decided that CD's were more convenient even though the audio quality was less, and then everyone really stepped off the audio-quality cliff and adopted ipods, which had pretty inferior audio quality to most everything...

Monty Montgomery would like to have a word with you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM#t=663 (just after the 11th minute mark). Audio cassettes mixed at home were 6-bit equivalent while the best open-reel studio decks were 13-bit (for reference, audio CDs are 16-bit).

For a detailed explanation (with pictures! i like pictures) why the 24/192 "invention" is BS - a glutten-free snake-oil - see http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
After reading "Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up" for a while, i am inclined to think it's crappy DACs and analog stages that are to be blamed for bad reproduction - not the 16/44.1 format.
 
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TheEndless
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Re: 4K MP4 h264/h265 content?

Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:07 pm

squirreltown wrote:
I think 4k is going to remain in the realm of professionals and people with lots of disposable income for the foreseeable future.

I don't think that's true at all. 4k TVs are now comfortably in the mid-level consumer price range, newer phones are now supporting 4k video recording, and YouTube even supports 4k uploads now. It'll be awhile before it's mainstream for broadcast, cable, and satellite, but I don't think it's far off on the streaming/on-demand side of things.
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squirreltown
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Re: 4K MP4 h264/h265 content?

Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:23 pm

EnTerr
Bits schmitz I say.

I used to have a home studio. That is to say I had three references. One - the sound that came out of all the digital boxes and passed live through the mixer into the amp/speakers.
Two - the same source recorded on 15ips 1/2 track 1/4 inch tape , and three - the same source recorded on a 48khz DAT tape.
No recording ever matched the live sound. The DAT and the RtoR were roughly equivalent in quality, although they sounded a little different.
Burning a CD produced something that was distinctively less then the two formats above. Blame it on DAC's if you want, not an unreasonable position, but this is my actual experience.

if you think 24/192 is snake oil, with all due respect you are either:
• full of it
• are taking someone else's word for it
• don't know what to listen for

There is no fourth option. Having been there and seen (um..heard) the ghosts myself, I know they exist.
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squirreltown
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Re: 4K MP4 h264/h265 content?

Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:30 pm

TheEndless wrote:
squirreltown wrote:
I think 4k is going to remain in the realm of professionals and people with lots of disposable income for the foreseeable future.

I don't think that's true at all. 4k TVs are now comfortably in the mid-level consumer price range, newer phones are now supporting 4k video recording, and YouTube even supports 4k uploads now. It'll be awhile before it's mainstream for broadcast, cable, and satellite, but I don't think it's far off on the streaming/on-demand side of things.


You could be right Endless, perhaps the foreseeable future is a much shorter time then i imagine.
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EnTerr
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Re: 4K MP4 h264/h265 content?

Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:57 pm

squirreltown wrote:
if you think 24/192 is snake oil, with all due respect you are either:
• full of it
• are taking someone else's word for it
• don't know what to listen for

There is no fourth option. Having been there and seen (um..heard) the ghosts myself, I know they exist.

Please read end-to-end the article i linked to, then view the whole video and only then we decide which option am i (and if you are one of the three or a 4th :) ). I won't disregard your experience (which is "anecdotal evidence", mind you*) - but you will see that double-blind studies have been and are being done with statistically significant number (many hundreds) of people. Your equipment might have been worse than the one used in the trials, sure - unfortunately that means such equipment will get bad results with 24/192 too, not only with 16/48**.

(*) just like Roku random reboots. Sometimes when there is smoke, there is fire.
(**) just like feeding a car with high-octane gas does not substitute for engine rebuild.
 
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RokuMarkn
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Re: 4K MP4 h264/h265 content?

Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:01 pm

I learned a long time ago not to argue with someone who has strong opinions about audio quality. They may be right or they may be wrong, but generally they are positive they are right and nothing will change their minds, not even blind tests that they participate in.

--Mark
 
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squirreltown
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Re: 4K MP4 h264/h265 content?

Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:42 pm

RokuMarkn wrote:
I learned a long time ago not to argue with someone who has strong opinions about audio quality. They may be right or they may be wrong, but generally they are positive they are right and nothing will change their minds, not even blind tests that they participate in.


Well that's a nice back-handed way of saying that I am full of it.

I responded to EnTerr's comment because of the use of the term "snake-oil" which none of us here need Wiki-whatever to tell us is a fraud, a fake, a mcguffin. I really don't care about this in more then a trivial way anymore but I know that EnTerr is generally well informed, and more to the point he appreciates precise language among other things.

I don't care how many people can't hear a difference. I did, and I'm far from alone in that. Everything is anecdotal until it happens to you.
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TheEndless
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Re: 4K MP4 h264/h265 content?

Wed Nov 19, 2014 2:23 pm

RokuMarkn wrote:
not even blind tests that they participate in.

That's the key. A double-blind study of this type) doesn't mean anything to anyone other than the participants. Unless you have the ears that are being tested, you have no idea how those ears interpret sound. How do I know the red you see is the same red I see? I don't.

Take the green square test in this video, and ask yourself why the same couldn't also be true for sound...
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RokuMarkn
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Re: 4K MP4 h264/h265 content?

Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:05 pm

I can't know whether the green you see is the same as the green I see, but I CAN know whether you can distinguish color differences with the same accuracy I do. The same thing is true for sound. Blind testing is the only way to do this, because perception is strongly colored by expectation, even if you are deliberately trying to be impartial.

--Mark

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